Gender-based Violence

00:00:01: Okay, so we will start with the introduction and then we'll just jump right in if that's okay with you.

00:00:07: Yeah

00:00:10: So whenever we're ready

00:00:16: Do you want me to count like three two one?

00:00:21: You can start by yourself.

00:00:23: Yes!

00:00:26: We are back this podcast series called See Through Feminism hosted by Hirish Bowl, Stiftung Regional Office for Southeast Asia and Family Meet where we will investigate feminist movements across Southeast Asia.

00:00:41: Again I'm your host Jiradaa And We continue our podcast episode with the reckoning that Southeast Asia has a common yet complex local and colonial histories That have influenced development of feminist movement in many different ways.

00:00:56: but Despite these challenges, they are common themes that resonate across the region.

00:01:01: And in fact each country's feminist movement can offer stories that could benefit one another and a public can also learn more about these feminist mobilizations support and consciousness.

00:01:13: So we're investigating this story on topic at time For our third episode.

00:01:18: We continue with one of the most pressing themes in feminist movements which is gender-based violence and we have a guest who has been working actively in this region for a long time now.

00:01:30: Her name is Jin Chong, she's an LGBTQ activist of more than thirty years.

00:01:36: She is the Executive Director and Founder of Asia Feminist LGBTQ Network that covers East-Asia, South-Asian and Southeast Asia based in Bangkok Thailand.

00:01:48: Jin also leads and co-founded Sayoni a queer feminist organization in Singapore that organizes community events, conducts research and advocates for equality well-being and dignity to improve the lives of LGBTQ people.

00:02:03: So I have Jean's bio—that is really long!

00:02:06: And i will include it on my transcriptions because that takes many minutes for me to go through what Jean has done so far.

00:02:12: but Jean feel free.

00:02:17: part of the work that you have done and would like to highlight as a part of your introduction.

00:02:23: If not, we

00:02:24: could just start

00:02:25: a podcast!

00:02:26: Yeah I can start the podcast...I think i've been hanging around volunteering for a long time so I hope Oh,

00:02:38: definitely.

00:02:39: And thank you for coming.

00:02:40: in fact I've been as a person who's been working in gender space in Thailand have been hearing your name For four few years now so i'm actually pretty excited to to help you here.

00:02:53: Thank You!

00:02:54: I hope they are good things.

00:02:56: So yeah...I mean I've Been Organizing In my own country in ASEAN Asia.

00:03:05: I've done Global work as well.

00:03:10: Actually I've done, a couple of years ago I worked on gender-based violence in China with LGBT groups and the women's movement so it was very interesting but i think also gave me a lot insights into how gender based violence is very similar at the cost of this very similar but the manifestation can be different depending the context you come from, yeah.

00:03:39: Interesting!

00:03:40: Oh I definitely have to ask more about that.

00:03:43: but first of all what inspired you to create your LGBTQ plus network and what gap you felt needed to be filled in a region?

00:03:53: Yeah i think the creation of the Asia Feminist LGBTQ Network was over a period or few decades actually so one.

00:04:06: So LBQ persons, including people who are assigned female at birth like trans men or trans lesbians.

00:04:14: We've noticed that in the LGBT movement gender-based violence is not a topic that it's commonly talked about.

00:04:22: we focus a lot on criminalization of law and violence in public spaces right?

00:04:30: And then in women's movements or mainstream service providers, we found that they know nothing about how LBQ and LBT people suffer from gender-based violence.

00:04:42: There's no concept at all!

00:04:46: And then the struggle continues where when we try to talk to funders, LGBT funders look at us as like you should talk with women groups.

00:04:54: We don't find an LGBTQ woman group.

00:04:57: Then why do we go to Women Funds?

00:04:59: You're just talking to LGBT funder.

00:05:02: So we are in this very intersectional space where you're like the feminist group and LGBT movement.

00:05:08: And then, there's a queer group with women's movements In between zones that were quite invisible.

00:05:18: The discourse or gender framework is very poor.

00:05:23: It was very identity based.

00:05:25: it wasn't feminist.

00:05:27: so the gap was obvious.

00:05:29: since two thousand ten or two thousand thirteen.

00:05:33: We have consultations with LBQ or LBT groups across Asia, the number one issue everybody talks about is gender-based violence.

00:05:45: every single of them uh Every country.

00:05:48: so The second issue is of course funding because asia Is quite underfunded compared to other region.

00:05:55: but So it's interrelated.

00:05:58: and As a result We had a consultation with activists and we said that, you cannot wait for women's groups to see us.

00:06:08: And we can not wait for LGBT youths to see as we have to organize ourselves and advocate our own issues.

00:06:17: so this is part of the reason why reformed the network.

00:06:22: Gender-based violence was one key thematic program.

00:06:27: second key thematic programs around SRHR.

00:06:30: Yeah, so again things like abortion rights never talk about in LGBT spaces.

00:06:37: yeah this is I think because it's the world is patriarchal right?

00:06:41: This is assumption.

00:06:42: women have no problems but the problems are unseen.

00:06:46: and then queer people don't get pregnant but there they're bisexual women!

00:06:50: So does this neglect of women's experiences or people who have women bodies, their experiences and how they are bodily autonomy.

00:07:03: And right to against gender-based violence is totally being neglected.

00:07:09: So the gap is quite big.

00:07:11: so yeah

00:07:15: I can imagine this was how many years ago when you started this out?

00:07:22: Oh!

00:07:23: You mean a network?

00:07:24: Yeah A network's quite new.

00:07:26: we officially started organising in two thousand twenty-two.

00:07:30: But the consultation we had took us more than ten years, there's a key reason to it nobody understands or nobody wants to fund us.

00:07:40: so that is thinking if you find women groups and then we found LGBT groups some of the money will be triggered down into this.

00:07:51: LGBTQ people assigned female above.

00:07:53: but do know these trigger.

00:07:55: now thinking is the capitalistic game, you never get it.

00:08:01: I have worked in a movement for thirty years or thirty-two years and i've never seen it.

00:08:06: LBQ or LBT groups continue to be... they only got zero point four percent of global LGBT funding.

00:08:17: this is how severe it was.

00:08:18: yeah oh wow that's

00:08:21: not even one

00:08:23: percent.

00:08:24: so I think the issues are structural.

00:08:31: It's also about how society is constructed, it's patriarchal and that manifestation of patriarchy in the LGBT movement as well in women's movements was very difficult when you're a woman who marginalized women were different.

00:08:48: so... And you know how society punishes people with different single-women unmarried mothers right so?

00:08:57: or women who do not behave.

00:08:59: So lesbians are seen as, we know they would not behave.

00:09:03: and then trans men in the patriarchal world are seen not as man but as women will misbehave And one trying to be different and trying to Be The powers that be which is men like patriarchy?

00:09:19: So...and how..the question Is How does violence and discrimination uh gets um manifests in a way that is unique and different.

00:09:30: Yeah

00:09:32: right, And how does the Asia Feminist LGBTQ Network fill that gap?

00:09:37: What what do you do?

00:09:39: yeah so I think The very first thing we went out to do was to do research.

00:09:43: So it produced quite a series of research around self-care well being Around organizational development.

00:09:52: We published a report about the SRHR in Malay Archipelago, which is majority Muslim.

00:10:02: And then Philippine Catholic Singapore as a mix so to investigate how SRHRIs are being violated by religion and criminalization because under SRHRA it's also gender-based violence.

00:10:20: So we did a research around bisexual women in Asia, which is going to publish soon.

00:10:29: And then some of the issues around bi-women and lesbians are forced marriage... ...which is a form of corrective fit right?

00:10:35: They're being forced to marry a stranger and be made to produce children!

00:10:42: We just concluded our research on funding for Asia & Pacific.

00:10:48: Yeah, and then we also do capacity training on groups to empower them to advocate for the issues.

00:10:57: And also cross regional learning right?

00:11:00: So maybe some of activists can learn from Thai activists, Thai activist can learn form South Asians.

00:11:06: you know We do advocacy as well.

00:11:10: The last piece that we do is around resources trying increase funding.

00:11:19: That's a really big scope of work that you're trying to

00:11:23: do.

00:11:23: I know, but we are still babies.

00:11:25: But more than ten years ago We had three decades To think about what we want to do And we have close to thirty years Of observing What is wrong with the system?

00:11:39: How people aren't Disappearing into gaps.

00:11:43: So there were lots of times when it comes down to things like We're starting to do a lot, but it takes time.

00:11:53: You know?

00:11:54: It can't change the world.

00:11:56: But I think we've done quite a lot actually Yeah...

00:12:02: I agree And how would you describe current landscape of gender-based violence in Asia especially as it affects LGBTQ people based on the research that you have done?

00:12:19: Yeah, I think some of the effects are quite severe and not well understood.

00:12:30: And a lot times community groups have no real language to explain what is happening to them.

00:12:38: A lot of time they will just say oh yeah it's because i'm a woman so i am born women.

00:12:45: therefore you know suffer this but what is the discourse around it.

00:12:50: So for example, we did this research around SRHR in Indonesia.

00:12:58: so how does criminalization discrimination and your gender identity as a woman affect you?

00:13:06: This girl came out to her ex-boyfriend so she raped him And as a result, she was pregnant and then she went to get an abortion.

00:13:18: Abortion is not illegal in Indonesia but instead into the government hospitals.

00:13:23: But instead of providing her with medical help they shame her.

00:13:28: They say oh your woman why you have sex?

00:13:30: You should keep their baby And so on...but at the same time She couldn't say that she was raped because it's lesbian Because LGBT identity in Indonesia.

00:13:42: It's very dangerous to say LGBT.

00:13:45: So she went into a private hospital and the private hospital practitioners told her to repent because it is mostly to repent why she has sex also at marriage or so, She couldn't get medical services that they need even though she encountered gender-based violence And eventually when she got an illegal abortion almost died from it as she still suffered the medical conditions from their illegal abortion.

00:14:16: So this is a classic case of gender-based violence where corrective rape happens, but correctly rape doesn't happen to cis heterosexual women.

00:14:25: what happens to cis homosexual women's punitive rape or whatever version right?

00:14:30: so corrective rapes are when you're being targeted as a lesbian or bisexual woman and because So when these two come together to intersect, what is the new and different kind of gender-based violence that comes out from that intersection?

00:14:51: This how I explain it.

00:14:54: All women are rigged—it's not!

00:14:57: The motivation around why lesbian or bi or even trans men who were rigged was just to punish them but correct them.

00:15:07: you need to stop being women that are, you know, ill-disciplined and need to behave in a way the patriarchal society says it should be.

00:15:22: So these are some of stories.

00:15:24: And if transgender men get targeted they're not just rape They often kill.

00:15:31: There's an element of overkill In all this violence.

00:15:34: It is not enough.

00:15:38: they have to punish you for violating the patriarchal society.

00:15:43: So I think, i think that research was very important.

00:15:47: explain how violence is manifest?

00:15:52: That it's similar to violence against women but also uniquely different.

00:15:58: yeah oh

00:16:01: Thank you for sharing, that is shocking to hear.

00:16:04: On my end we have been reading about intersectionality right but too here how it actually manifests in real life and with so many layers of violence from so many institutions as a person trying to navigate its just... It's shocking to her.

00:16:22: Yeah I think alot times violence happens to women or cis queer woman.

00:16:28: really trans women, trans men are behind closed doors.

00:16:32: So the less... The more visible you are in public spaces.

00:16:36: uh You get targeted because people can see right?

00:16:40: They're not passing.

00:16:41: but even if you pass People cannot see you.

00:16:44: Public violence Uh It shifts to uh Behind closed door family violence or intimate violence.

00:16:53: and When I was working on it in China, the violence a lot of it comes from family.

00:16:59: And there's no hardly any violence from public.

00:17:02: The terrible violence all came from families will send you to your conversion therapy electric shocks and things like that.

00:17:13: so i'd like to say too A lot of practitioners that yes the LGBT spectrum we all suffer.

00:17:22: There's this assumption that certain groups suffer more, but it is not like there.

00:17:26: We all suffered differently and has a lot to do with how the patriarchal society controls you.

00:17:36: then if we are not visible doesn't mean they don't suffer as well.

00:17:40: so yeah

00:17:44: That's true.

00:17:45: Is there any particular forms of violence or discrimination that are often overlooked based on whether it's your experience, our networks research?

00:17:56: I think a lot.

00:17:59: Of course if you're visible in public spaces There is higher chance for public violence.

00:18:04: but i think the Asian context Public Violence is not compared to the West For example.

00:18:10: It's Not The Big Thing.

00:18:12: So A Lot of Research shows our violence are very connected to degrees of separation.

00:18:20: So there's always these three spaces where violence happens especially for LVT people, family workplace and schools.

00:18:28: so it is because that degree or separation with the people we work with.

00:18:32: they come in close contact.

00:18:34: so the discrimination of violence often happen at this places.

00:18:37: not so much public spaces Of course Public Spaces happens but But In comparison the degrees of separation spaces, there's a big gap.

00:18:50: And when you say public violence are we speaking about just geographical location?

00:18:56: or are we talking about hate crime?

00:19:00: A complete stranger coming to attack you?

00:19:02: Yeah, hate crimes like for example me.

00:19:05: if look at my I'm quite a bush looking so I am very tall and people don't tend pick on but they recognise But my experience when I try to go the bathroom, for example.

00:19:21: I get verbal abuse as well As much a trans person.

00:19:29: So if they are not passing.

00:19:32: so then The question is How does society police gender?

00:19:38: Right.

00:19:38: how does society decide?

00:19:40: you have long hair therefore your woman If you're a short-haired woman, therefore not women.

00:19:47: And I find the experience very unique to different countries like Philippines and Thailand.

00:19:51: way easier for me go bathroom because don't care people are more exposed and socialised.

00:19:57: but if i goes over country Muslim country or the Middle East it's very hostile Very difficult to go to a bathroom!

00:20:06: I am scared of going to the bathroom.

00:20:09: Oh...I see everyday experience as well because everyone has to go to the toilet right?

00:20:17: Yeah, so some women's groups are like very scared of trans people.

00:20:21: Trans women especially going into the bathroom.

00:20:24: I'm like...I think they're more scared of you also!

00:20:29: They just want is then that's when society decides what its gender stereotype, how should a woman look like?

00:20:40: How should the man looks and if you don't fall into those how men should look.

00:20:47: Then we are not women enough or male enough to know who they really are.

00:21:00: That's true.

00:21:01: And now that you mentioned about your sense of safety accessing public bathrooms, it occurred to me.

00:21:11: with the current global geopolitical shift happening right now It seems like there has been a lot anti-gender sentiment.

00:21:22: What are your observations on the impacts?

00:21:27: Especially I think the discourse also revolves around nationalization, securitisation of essentially everything.

00:21:36: Yeah I think i've heard a lot from global north.

00:21:40: so the word that they call coin and anti-gender movement amongst Asian activists.

00:21:48: So a lot of us have picked up the word, but we're also saying gender-based violence.

00:21:54: activists will say this is not new phenomenon for us.

00:22:00: Especially in Asia where Asian culture is very patriarchal.

00:22:05: so it's almost like the global now has their liberal democracy and all more progressive societies taken away from them and government has become conservative.

00:22:20: And all these conservative groups are coordinating with each other, but what's happening in Asia is that we have the old institutions holding up this anti-gender ideology.

00:22:40: for example like Malaysian governments they are the old institutions that holding on to this.

00:22:46: and you cannot be transgender, a woman should not be like these.

00:22:53: My home country in Singapore for long time.

00:22:56: if I'm single mother we can't buy public housing.

00:23:00: so it's being punished because you're not married anyway.

00:23:07: So... In Asian context we've always had anti-gender movement.

00:23:13: we've always had governments across Asia, whether from South to East.

00:23:18: they are authoritarian or paternalistic.

00:23:22: That's the word right?

00:23:23: We all have this and most of our government systems are paternalist amongst men.

00:23:33: so the community before you your family and the government before you.

00:23:44: So there's this hierarchy of social institutions that surrounds um, the construction of family and society.

00:23:53: so it I just feel like is not a new topic.

00:23:55: we always have it.

00:23:57: yeah

00:23:59: now that you've mentioned i've been thinking about so many teaching and discourse that in fact became invisible because we're so used to it, you know whether its school or family.

00:24:11: It's in temples for example.

00:24:15: So yeah nothing new right?

00:24:18: Yeah That is why I am saying the West came calling a term something happening in Europe or America and they're organizing it a certain way because the churches are religion.

00:24:32: But, I think the anti-gender issue is similar but the manifestation of how it came about is different for... Let's talk about China & Vietnam right?

00:24:46: China doesn't have religion!

00:24:48: Because the government does not allow it so its all controlled.

00:24:54: let's say conversion therapy is not driven by religion compared to maybe Indonesia, it's driven my family because the family paid the hospitals to try and change you.

00:25:06: So so there was a very interesting observation but in Malaysia the state is one who spending money to persecute you send you to conversion camps.

00:25:19: that what I'm saying like Asia is big quite complicated, I think.

00:25:26: Right and but speaking of geo-political shift um i think one thing that at least i've been noticing is the impact of the funding landscape.

00:25:36: yeah yes oh right

00:25:39: because

00:25:44: Yeah go ahead

00:25:45: Because like the USA it has been shut down.

00:25:48: And then we're hearing a lot about how at least in Thailand NGOs there have talking about the lack of funding, and I think at the beginning you also mentioned that there's a lot of funding to begin with even before this geopolitical shift.

00:26:03: So is it from your observation?

00:26:06: what kind of impact or changes has been happening?

00:26:08: Oh yeah!

00:26:09: There are lots of jobless people.

00:26:12: so we put on an ad for our advocacy and research officer.

00:26:18: We say very clearly that Africans must know and be based in Asia.

00:26:24: But we get hundreds and hundreds of applicants from Caribbean, America Europe.

00:26:32: You know everywhere that I am like what they apply?

00:26:35: And then look at their CV.

00:26:38: you can tell there have some kind of job until the USAID in a funding card and then they started consulting CWO.

00:26:44: so it tells me as a gauge for my experience It helps me to do a lot of joblessness Because we've always not had enough, so now with the funding cuts.

00:26:59: The impact is quite severe

00:27:04: I agree Um i think um.

00:27:06: i've been hearing stories about in thailand as well About how people have been looking for jobs.

00:27:13: II Think it happened around february mid-february onwards and Many people still are looking For jobs even right Now which Is approaching december.

00:27:23: So it's been a really tough situation.

00:27:26: Yeah, I spent the top year and when i start to see applicants from Africa...I know things are very bad!

00:27:35: All from the United States.

00:27:36: in Europe these are the regions that have usually most funding compared with Asia.

00:27:41: so they're trying to compete for jobs in Asia.

00:27:45: That tells you something.

00:27:49: And from your many years of experience, do you reckon the pendulum will swing to the other side perhaps?

00:27:56: I think it'll take a few years.

00:27:58: Like there was recent reports by Human Rights Funders Network about funding for Bi-Lateral Funding, which means government funding and they predict a drop of US dollars dropped.

00:28:18: so i think Wow, I

00:28:24: agree and it felt like after USAID was shut down.

00:28:29: I've been seeing trends where countries in Europe are following the same trend

00:28:34: Yeah

00:28:34: And shifting their focus from gender to climate instead.

00:28:40: Yeah Climate is a very important topic but i think topics of gender-based violence such as HR, LGBT rights It's no longer priority.

00:28:52: But that's good news, right?

00:28:53: Canada won the election.

00:28:57: The Progressives and Netherlands also.

00:29:00: the Progressive won the elections so there are some good news coming out from there.

00:29:05: That is true And hopefully in Southeast Asia as well.

00:29:09: I know Southeast Asia is underfunded.

00:29:15: Can you share stories or examples about successful examples just to lift up the mood a bit in terms of perhaps have you seen any grassroots organizing that made a tangible difference in addressing violence?

00:29:32: I think, for me some countries if we look at Thailand for example.

00:29:38: so you've done fantastic works.

00:29:40: i've seen very unique organizations doing self-sufficiency and well being and that's their entire portfolio.

00:29:49: And they've tried funding, the funding cut affect them just a little bit.

00:29:55: A lot of women groups have fantastic organising capacity.

00:29:59: so when I look at all these people or maybe in Philippines or Japan there are resilience gives me hope.

00:30:12: being poor not being funded We are not used to it.

00:30:19: So I feel like, yeah we don't have money.

00:30:22: then i was thinking that anyway you're gonna survive and It's going to be very different for a country they have so much money suddenly Don't have any?

00:30:33: And I think as Asians...we know how to survive!

00:30:40: I have great hopes and aspirations for Asians.

00:30:44: Yeah, it's being resilient is in our DNAs.

00:30:48: Exactly!

00:30:49: But you used to be poor so that's fine.

00:30:53: So what kind of advice or lessons would you like to share with your fellow activists and allies around the region if they're listening?

00:31:04: Well

00:31:04: I have so many but i guess we...I think our strength is always each other.

00:31:14: And then even if you're organizing on a national level, we should try to build alliance and networks cross border as well because I think it will come together with the stronger.

00:31:27: A lot more visible.

00:31:29: so this is what i believe in AFLN and I have benefited from activists from other countries who helped me when women's groups in my own country refused And I think that's the first key thing.

00:31:47: we need to support each other and advocate together collectively.

00:31:53: That will make us a lot more powerful, i think there is Chinese saying one chopstick you can break it if have bunch of chopsticks impossible!

00:32:09: I really agree with that point, especially I've been hearing stories about how activists who have been working and they feel burnout.

00:32:21: So i think that's one of like a really good way as well for people to feel rejuvenated and ready to be resilient again.

00:32:30: Yeah in Thailand there are so much great organizations doing this.

00:32:42: Any self-care other than the practices?

00:32:44: I think one of the key things is to not just eternal, how do we practice self care with each other.

00:32:52: So even in a movement it... The realistic thing is that we will fight with each others and argue there will be conflict because you are different human beings right.

00:33:03: so but How can we have?

00:33:07: conflict promotes well-being in a way that it's like you can fight but don't do personal insults.

00:33:18: You know the kind of things, practical thing how we bring these practices within our organising?

00:33:28: How can look at pay structure and not assume activists should suffer Like usually only earn ten thousand baht or twenty thousand for example?

00:33:40: What is an equitable pay?

00:33:42: I think those practices of self care are self-care as well.

00:33:45: Like how do you, maybe at the year end, do close your office to give your staff a break?

00:33:52: not just five days Maybe two weeks You can afford it.

00:33:56: So this is so.

00:33:58: How time can we build into the system?

00:33:59: or thing We all else?

00:34:01: It's just we keep talking and then Activists go home And try to sell care themselves.

00:34:08: I

00:34:10: agree, that sounds ideal but at the same time it's pretty hard given we're limited by resources.

00:34:18: We have to counter anti-gender sentiments and also taking care of one another... That is a balance you need to find.

00:34:28: Yeah for us its bad minimum.

00:34:30: Of course some rules will fight each other when people get upset But some rules about fighting like no personal insult.

00:34:38: It's just about the work and being more direct.

00:34:42: Don't do the indirect thing, closing an office for two weeks end of year or maybe after a big workshop or conference we usually let our staff off week after.

00:34:53: so like it is almost the bare minimum.

00:34:55: but I think its common sense.

00:35:00: people are tired if you drag them back to their offices.

00:35:03: they're not going to perform Adjusting the pay scale.

00:35:12: When we started, it's not so great but we adjusted it.

00:35:15: It is not super high.

00:35:17: now We adjust in a way that...it easier for people to earn them living and have some savings because they are no pension.

00:35:27: Of course its hard to do everything But you can start with small things first.

00:35:35: I like the sound of that and this is what i would call green flag organizations to work with.

00:35:44: We are very busy so people really do get burned out, it just doesn't make sense for me force them back into office.

00:35:51: but sometimes there's no choice.

00:35:52: we have a lot of deadlines we try to look at people as before and trying to figure out, I mean you know it's hard so sometimes you can't do everything.

00:36:13: That's

00:36:13: true!

00:36:15: It is a dynamic environment.

00:36:18: yeah just be aware of our time.

00:36:25: i have only one last point that i want to discuss.

00:36:28: with What kind of things that we have?

00:36:35: a lot of supporters, gender-based violence work listening.

00:36:39: So I'm curious to hear what is it they require more attention or where to focus?

00:36:45: Or even start if you want to support gender based violence work?

00:36:52: Maybe next year after the end of this year will be doing workshops for service providers with allies and trainings around queer gender-based violence.

00:37:04: I think the very first thing is to understand what we mean, so a lot of groups when women's groups... When i talk about gender based violence or SRHR.. I talked about LGBT people including trans people.

00:37:18: their response to me is yeah yeah we include LGBT people.

00:37:22: then I say I'm not talking about LGBTQ people!

00:37:26: So this indicates to me that they don't really understand the intersectional nature of LBQ and people who are assigned female at birth, how gender-based violence affects them.

00:37:40: And for gay men because there still... They're also men.

00:37:44: then patriarchy effects in a different way.

00:37:48: so I think women's groups need to first understand.

00:37:52: if you do not understand it we will start having an in depth conversation about how they include or support LGBT groups working on gender-based violence.

00:38:03: That's the... Or else, How can they even design programs that are inclusive?

00:38:08: So I've encountered groups from countries, the women's groups to pioneers in the matriarchal or gender based violence.

00:38:17: and while they're drafting laws you know like oh it never occurred for us unique protection.

00:38:23: Then I'm like, why not?

00:38:24: We are also women and all.

00:38:26: Hey trust people on also need protection!

00:38:28: So it tells you that there's.

00:38:31: this assumption is the same for everyone as well as not understanding the intersections and nuances of how minority or marginalized people encounter dead waste violence.

00:38:45: so if your poor but experience will be very different from someone with small privilege

00:38:52: or people who are based in like countryside, cities and urban area.

00:38:58: Yeah

00:39:00: so we have also found that a lot of regional groups work with people based on the capital because it's easier they speak English then from rural areas.

00:39:11: when you fly them in their air ticket is flying to America okay?

00:39:14: So expensive!

00:39:15: Because there not alot flights more focus outside the capital area, people who don't have access can making sure we had language justice.

00:39:28: Spend money... We tell our funders that we will spend their money on a language.

00:39:33: it is very expensive I know but its worth it.

00:39:37: and then secondly spend your money to bring them.

00:39:41: And third thing there are lot of groups forget Is when they come to Bangkok what's with hotel right?

00:39:48: and they try to jack check in what the hotel will ask for, credit card.

00:39:53: Do you think these people from rural areas have credit cards?

00:39:57: All had money so that economic anxiety is strong.

00:40:00: also we learned when we told a hotel do not collect credit cards or any form of cards And then don't feel like I'm poor coming into this beautiful city of Bangkok.

00:40:15: it's quite expensive And yeah, so the little things matters.

00:40:22: So these are and also security concern right?

00:40:26: Like some of the activists from rural they had to fly the capital and then you have to fly a bank card.

00:40:32: when we're going through immigration inside their country get discriminated because first your poor become from rural area.

00:40:39: secondly They don't look straight.

00:40:41: it looks queer Right!

00:40:43: So there's profiling happening many times.

00:40:46: that gets stopped immigration.

00:40:48: Don't allow them to come, say you don't have money.

00:40:50: where are they going?

00:40:51: So yeah it happens and these are the struggles of people from the reward area.

00:40:59: so we have like a safety security plan on how.

00:41:02: we will have a Zoom meeting all of them first We'll briefed then give our numbers try put together and track their travel.

00:41:15: so many little things that we have to learn, try and protect them.

00:41:22: That's really important because without that you will not be able to hear their voices?

00:41:27: Yeah!

00:41:28: And they're participation to begin with... So

00:41:33: yeah there is so much discussion around how do we support rural people.

00:41:38: Sixty percent of Asians are in rural areas.

00:41:42: actually Some people complain, we put them in nice hotels.

00:41:49: I'm like oh they complained to me and i said that you've suffered enough.

00:41:53: just stay three days in this nice hotel enjoy the buffet because you're going back to suffer again!

00:41:58: And some of them come from places when they walk.

00:42:02: good have looked behind them these rules following them When there are meetings They cannot all go To The meeting room or someone's house together Because they look queer.

00:42:12: so Because if they report to the police, a police will come and things like that.

00:42:17: So I tell them look you spend most three hundred sixty-two days suffering.

00:42:25: Three days in a nice hotel is okay.

00:42:27: It's also a form of self care But off course within our budget.

00:42:33: we can afford it.

00:42:34: We try not to skim on things Like make sure their fed or Yeah, so I think it's very important.

00:42:43: Those are self-care practices.

00:42:45: Yes reminds me of Audie Lorde quote where she wrote that its self care is not self indulgent.

00:42:52: It's an agro political warfare?

00:42:57: Yeah!

00:42:57: I totally agree with you.

00:42:58: So i learned so much and i'm humbled by our experiences That why we keep adjusting how to include them.

00:43:09: Of course, Indonesia is so big and we tend not to invite people in the capital.

00:43:14: We try not do it And you always try to involve people outside of capital.

00:43:19: Yeah

00:43:22: That's good to hear about like so many things that you have done and also the detail In how you brought together people.

00:43:28: So where can we follow your work?

00:43:32: I've been seeing How you roll out some short videos on Facebook.

00:43:40: our listeners could just check out the great work that you do.

00:43:44: Yeah, I think we're most active on Instagram.

00:43:46: so Asia LBQ network You can follow us there Facebook as well but a lot of people are not using facebook anyway.

00:43:55: So uh We also did some funny videos because we decided The world is in traumatic place last year and it's okay to laugh a little bit.

00:44:06: Do something silly.

00:44:09: I know you've seen some of our silly videos and it's okay to laugh.

00:44:14: We do a lot serious work, so spend one minute or thirty seconds looking at your silly videos.

00:44:26: I'm not.

00:44:30: So

00:44:36: yeah, i think also being able to reach out young people and human rights and women's rights are seen as like pretty boring.

00:44:50: And we're not all that boring Being able to talk about Human Rights or Women's Rights in a way That is relatable for them.

00:45:02: It's important.

00:45:04: We try but you know, sometimes we try not to take ourselves too seriously.

00:45:13: Well thank you so much for today.

00:45:16: I think i've learned a lot and definitely um I would love to grab coffee with you one day just to hear about other works that you have done.

00:45:24: but yeah Thank You So Much For Your Time Today!

00:45:33: when it's available.

00:45:34: But yeah, thank you so much!

00:45:36: Thank.