Land Rights & Climate Justice (in English)

Episode 2 – Climate transcript in English

Host:

Hello everyone. We are back with our second episode of the podcast, a collaboration between Femnimitr and Heinrich Böll Stiftung, Southeast Asia Regional Office. This episode is a part of the series “SEA through Feminism”. In the series, we will explore feminism in Southeast Asia with people who work on these issues. This episode was originally recorded in Thai. And this version is the reenactment of the original episode, but this time in English.

Today, we are honoured by our guest, “Tai” Oranuch Pholpinyo. She is working on land rights, Isaan communities’ ecosystem restoration. We are really grateful that you joined us today. Hello, P’Tai. Can you please introduce yourself, your work, and your area?

Oranuch:

Hello. I am “Tai” Oranuch Pholpinyo. I am the executive committee of Isaan Land Reform Network (ILRN) and an education committee member in Migrants Workers Union of Thailand (MWUT), and part of the organizing team of Chaiyaphum Pride in 2025. I have been working on environmental, land, and forest issues for over twenty years.

Host:

Twenty years?

Oranuch:

Roughly over twenty or thirty years, since I was still a student.

Host:

So, what brought you into this field then, twenty years ago?

Oranuch:

In 1990, I was studying communication arts. Summana Boonpanya was my advisor then. Her partner was Bamrung Boonpanya, a senior development worker. He already passed away. We always called him “Lung Peok” (Uncle Peok). At that time, we saw people come and go in Summana’s house very often. They dressed very artistically, with sandals and large bags. We lived on campus, and our dorms were close to the professor’s house. We went there to say hi. After that, we knew that they were talking about land issues.

In 1992, just after the coup d’etat by Suchinda Kraprayoon, the government launched a policy of increasing national forest cover to 40 percent. After the junta seized control, they launched a land allocation project for poor people in the forest reserve and degraded forest area. They called it “Kor Chor Gor”. This project has displaced 2,500 communities in 47 forestry areas in the Isaan (Northeast) region, from their farming plots to designated areas. That brought conflicts among the people. At that time, I was a sophomore when I saw the groups at the professor’s house. I got curious about how the problem came to be. We were development volunteers as well. We learned about Isaan community problems through NGO workers that we talked to at Lung Peok’s house. We went to communities every weekend. We saw that those problems were serious. The army and forestry officers used force and guns to threaten them. If people did not voluntarily move out, they destroyed those people’s homes and evicted people themselves.

Host:

Evicted them? That’s intimidation.

Oranuch:

Yes. It was like in the movie. I knew then this was real life. I never knew before that this problem existed in Isaan or in Thailand. We then started working since then and learned how to work from them.

Host:

The government evicted people only from Isaan or from other areas in the country too?

Oranuch:

In their operation, they had national guidelines, but they started with the Isaan region because Isaan is the area where many people live in state land, like a forest reserve area. After the eviction, the communities assembled and fought back. So, the state’s attempt failed. After Suchinda enacted that policy, Isaan communities were suffering, and they assembled under the name of Isaan Peasant Assembly. They marched to Pak Chong district, Nakhon Ratchasima and occupied “Kaen Khoo” area. At present, there is no trace of Isaan's historic fight left. They occupied the area until 1992, when Anan Panyarachun went there to negotiate. It was concluded that the people can return to their original farming lands. When they returned, an issue occurred as the place they used to live had been converted into a reserve or national park area.

Host:

That means they could not live there anymore.

Oranuch:

Yes. They can’t live there anymore. It was the fight about the fact that we have been here before. The cabinet resolution on July 3, 1992, stated that they can return to the maternal land. They have been fighting since then, even now, in many areas.

Host:

Legal battles?

Oranuch:

Through laws and facts. In legal terms, people have been living there before the policy enactment. After that, they were evicted. It was unfair. After the eviction, they could not farm as they used to. Actually, there was evidence of their farming. There were mango and jackfruit trees. It was evidence that people had toiled in those lands before. This has been our ground in fighting.

Host:

Was that part of the Isaan Land Rights Network (ILRN) as well?

Oranuch:

That was only the beginning of how I started working on this issue. For ILRN, it began with research on land conflicts. After that, we scaled up the research and went to the fields in Isaan. Mostly, it was about land conflicts where land classification overlaps. The farming and villagers’ land overlapped the forestry’s land: forest reserve, national park, and Agricultural Land Reform area, and other types of state land. Our work also involves protecting from rock mining. In the beginning, we mobilized under the name the Network of Sern Basin Villagers for Conservation at Khon San district, Chaiyaphum. After the research, we have a collection of issues and saw that there were a lot of land conflicts. How can we fix that? We need to go into communities and organize ideologically. Then, they can see the origin of problems and how the struggle process should be… In 2006, we discussed that our network was insufficient because it was specifically focused. We then established ILRN, covering 36 areas in Isaan, with over 600 members, who are facing land rights conflicts.

Host:

For those unfamiliar with the Thai context, what makes the land a critical point in the Isaan region?

Oranuch:

It’s critical because land is important; land is life. No matter how far your work is, when you return home, and you do not have your farming land. Your life is seemingly negative, and other complex problems will follow. For example, if you do not have a piece of land, you can become houseless or landless, without a farming area to feed yourself. Therefore, land rights are essential for Isaan people and for people throughout the country, too. In Thailand, there are 320 million Rai in total (1 rai = 0.16 hectares). The Isaan region has the largest cover area in the country at 104 million Rai. Isaan people still faced land rights issues because in these 104 million Rai, there are 16-million-Rai forestry areas which overlap with people’s farming areas. Similar to what I said earlier, originally in Kor Chor Gor, we saw that there were 47 forestry areas in Isaan. It was categorized into 11 forest reserves, 28 national parks, 5 wildlife sanctuaries, public uses, and state lands. These lands mostly overlap with farmers' land in Isaan. Those brought conflicts. When these lands overlap, according to the Thai Land Code, people cannot have title deeds because the forest laws override them. When they do not have legal documents over their lands, they cannot access opportunities like others. For example, bailing right. Whenever they face charges, they cannot use their documents to guarantee.

Host:

Because it also serves as a proof?

Oranuch:

Yes. Then they have to take out loans, which brings other problems.

Host:

From what I’ve been learning, I noticed that land has a strong tie to women because women use and take care of the land, as reproductive and non-reproductive communal care. Do you see any direct impacts on women regarding the land rights issue?

Oranuch:

They were severely affected by various layers of impacts. As a woman, she has many roles: as a mother and a wife, for example. In the past, women in Isaan were not leaders in movements. Only recently that it changed. In the past, when I just started working, whenever we talk about problems in the community, women would go and work in the kitchen, cooking and taking care. While men stepped into the front as the core team. Being in the kitchen did not mean they did not want to know what was going on. They wanted to, but they were pushed by their roles to cook during meetings.

In the Kor Chor Gor period, women rose up and fought in 1991. We saw an increase in women leaders since then. The impacts on them, apart from having to protect the land, they also have to take care of their families. People with children also protect their children. At the same time, they also face impacts from state, economy or not. They have to carry that aside from the issue.

For example, when there are family and social issues, men can just drink it away to relax. That is the structural power that oppresses women. Whenever there are conflicts, some families turn to domestic violence. Women are at the receiving end of men’s emotional outbursts by default. They are oppressed not only from the family but also from government policies. So, they carry a heavy burden. I think men and women roles in communities have to change. There is a need to fight together and help each other to create gender balance. Women and men roles in the movement have to be equal.

Host:

Are there any interesting movement strategies in protecting the land and communities, in your network, or abroad?

Oranuch:

Our friends went to MST (Brazil's Landless Workers' Movement (MST); they occupied the land. I think it is very good strategy and very cool. They have a whole community with a school and everything in those camps. I think that to fight in land rights issue, it is not as if you fight and you get the land and that’s the end. It is about developing the land so that they have values. For instance, after you fight, you get the land but if you do not think of other dimensions: economic and food security. You will lose those lands once again as you cannot protect them. I think it needs systemic management and there should be a person to continue the practice. We need to talk about (food) production system; organic farming, agroforestry, agroecology that will make us have food and economic security as well. Both are important and can complement each other. Most importantly, the ideological organizing.

Host:

Can you elaborate more on that?

Oranuch:

Ideological organizing is how we make people see what’s behind the problem, see the power balance, and think about the collective.

Host:

It is not like you have this problem, you fix it and then that’s it.

Oranuch:

Yes. It needs a radical analysis on the root cause of the problem. For example, we are evicted from our farming land. The real problem is not just a government policy that evicts us but there is always a motif behind that policy. To illustrate, the increase of 40 percent to 55 percent forest cover, they need our lands for forest restoration so they can sell carbon credits. That involves many conglomerates. This is a sample from land and forest issue; we are not talking about the dams, energy, and other stories yet. There are more forces behind the scenes, not only the government.

Host:

So, it’s not just small villagers whose lands were grabbed and then it’s ended. But there are problems from conglomerates, and other structural issues.

Oranuch:

Yes. We have to try to make villagers analyse them to the deeper end, to see where the real problems lie. It’s not just we are affected, we fight, and we get the land and then that’s it. What happen in the chain of problems has to be shown so we can plan the direction and solution together, throughout the cycle, thinking about how we can fight forces behind the government…the conglomerates.

Host:

Is there any regional collaboration? I think this is not a topic that you can fight alone in a single movement; you need to join hands and fights.

Oranuch:

Yes. I think it is important because these problems happen everywhere, in Thailand. Others face these problems as well. Recently, I joined an event in Nakhon Panom, the Mekong - ASEAN Environmental Week (MAEW). I saw that Indonesia, Korea, Laos, Cambodia, Thailand faced similar issues. Therefore, we are trying to connect and create a bigger people’s movement in ASEAN region so that we can mobilize for solutions.

Host:

When you talked about the movement, there’s something I want to ask. Because you have many roles, you are also a coordinator for Pride…does these issues connect? Is it an intersectional identity that needs to join hands?

Oranuch:

In fact, in every problem, everyone faces the consequences, no matter who you are or where you are. For example, with climate change, whether you identify with LGBTQIAN+ identity or not, you are poor or rich, you will face impacts when it really comes. With disasters driven by climate change, we want to connect by interpreting these issues together. How can we recognize it aside from gender rights; we also need to learn with LGBTQIAN+ groups. We all need to learn from each other to create a power to fight the conglomerates that are bigger than us.

Host:

I feel like it’s not an isolated issue, but it is all an interconnected web. So, it’s needed a collective fight.

Oranuch:

Problems come from the same origin, but they just branch out. To group together and learn across organizations are crucial. We are learning about agroecology with the agricultural network now; it also connects with land reform and management in ILRN. We joined hands with P-Move to drive for policy changes. In the future, maybe we join other networks in ASEAN if we have an opportunity. We will connect and drive for our common issues, which we certainly have.

Host:

In your work, are there any issues or barriers you want to tell us that you face, and other people will face them as well…

Oranuch:

Wow…there are many things. For example, the lawsuits and SLAPP (Strategic lawsuit against public participation) cases on human rights defenders, activists, social practitioners like us. It’s the tool that the opponent uses. It worked before as it takes a lot of our time…in Bokaew village (Khonsan district), the Forest Industry Organization (FIO) grabbed lands from people and planted Eucalyptus trees. People had been fighting and then they went to live the area in 2009. After that, we faced civil lawsuits against 31 people to evict us. These 31 people are villagers and us, workers, even though we do not have any stakes on those lands. Me and my partner, Pramote, and other two staff from our office were charged because they wanted to force an eviction. Also, people from other villages who just paid them a visit to support, were charged for eviction too. Den Khamlae who had disappeared (enforced disappearance) was also charged, even though he just visited the village.

This is a tactic that the state uses to take us down. It is not only used by the state. The companies, the brokers, the conglomerates also sued workers. I was charged by a broker in defamation lawsuit, from labour issues. I was helping workers that were tricked to go working in Switzerland. The police officers called and informed me. And I said to them, ‘when I am ready, I will go. Now I am busy with work’.

Host:

How do you deal with all of this?

Oranuch:

Actually, the problem we see is about the low number of progressive legal workers…who see injustice and want to lend their hands. There are only a few of them while lawsuits against people keep increasing. Very few legal workers. Another problem is intimidation through laws and policies, many of them are problematic, e.g., the National Park Act and Wildlife Sanctuary Act 2019. After the government passed the laws, people are allowed to live in the areas for only 20 years, rather than living worry-free life. After 20 years, the state decides who get to stay. These laws concentrate the power to the state only.

Host:

This made me realize that we have to look at the policies too; there needs to be an internal person to talk about this issue.

Oranuch:

To be specific, Anutin’s government policies made my heart heavy. We are worried; our brothers and sisters in other networks are worried too, especially with natural resource policies. They talked about 5 dimensions of environment, such as renewable energy, low-carbon society while the existing problems, the forestry land conflicts with communities, have not been solved. How can we resolve this issue? They said carbon trade will happen. What will be the benefits for people and how will the land problems be fixed by having a carbon credit market…an increase of forest cover to 55 percent in their policies…my question is where will they get the lands to plant trees? Forestry areas are full already in Thailand. The rest is the overlapped farming land that belongs to the communities.

Host:

It sounds good on the paper., if we just hear about it. But if we look closely, no it doesn’t.

Oranuch:

Yes, we have to look inside the project. Is the energy going to be clean and then the carbon emission will be zero or low? We, in the network, also talked about this. If they want zero carbon, why do they need farmers and villagers to carry this burden? Why don’t you talk to industries that release carbon emissions? Why don’t you reduce that? Why do you push the burden to farmers and villagers? The Article 97, an environmental law, is about the Polluters Pay principle. It is ridiculous that these laws were lightly enforced on the industries, but they were used by the National Park department to charge people who live in national park areas for greenhouse emission lawsuits (offender for greenhouse crime). They, poor farmers, have to pay the greenhouse fee at 150,000 baht per Rai. What is the justice in that? If you have the cool planet but unjust, what is it really then?

Host:

I believe that everyone here, also myself, got to learn many things from Tai’s experience. On the structural problems, culture, land justice, connection of the laws, politics, organization with climate change. This emphasises the necessity that many sectors and feminist movements have to join hands to resolve these issues. Thanks Tai so much for today.

Oranuch:

Thanks to you as well and thanks for this opportunity too.

Host:

You are very welcome. Thanks a lot. Goodbye.

If anybody want to learn more about land justice, and agriculture. We have a complementary dossier exploring this issue on the website. You can click the link in the description below. The next episode will be in English on the issue of gender-based violence in Southeast Asia. Please follow to see our upcoming guest. Goodbye for today.